Lately I have talked to a LOT of people about what I believe a woman's role in ministry is, what I base that off of, and what I think about how Baptist churches have handled it. Since I'm going into ministry, this is obviously something that has been heavy on my heart for quite a while (two years to be exact ;)). And after all the research/soul-searching/prayer/etc., I think it comes down to a few basic principles that everyone needs to understand when they make up their mind about this issue. They aren't fun to hear for most people (especially women), but God's Word is pretty clear. I'm not saying my view is flawless, or that I'm an expert (I most definitely am NOT), but I think a lot of people (mostly women in my experience) need to be reminded of a few things when forming their opinions on this issue.
So here is what I've come up with so far...
1. Before you form an opinion, you HAVE to understand what Scripture says about women in general, but more specifically, what it says about women in the church and church authorities. Passages like 1 Timothy 2:11-14, 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 are very clear about this issue.
2. You must understand that this is not about male chauvinism or female empowerment, it's about biblical interpretation. I know that a LOT of women and men think the only reason the whole "women in ministry" thing is an issue is because of outdated viewpoints and overbearing men, BUT the reality is, it's an issue that has been around since Paul's time (and even before). Just because women have been "liberated" (whatever that means) since Paul's time, doesn't make the issue any less applicable or valid! Our flesh is deceptive, and it will always question those things that don't seem to feel right...which brings me to my next point...
3. You have to look at this issue separate from how you feel about it. Like I already mentioned, it's about what God's Word says, not how you think or feel it should be. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that as women, we have a tendency to live life based on our emotions, but when it comes to the foundational belief's of a church, or your personal belief's about what Scripture says, it is important to see beyond how you feel and really look into God's Word. Do research, ask older, wise men and women, just don't base it off how you feel. Your emotions are not the same as Truth.
4. Since we come from a generation and culture that teaches self-entitlement, it is important to make a conscious effort to break through that mindset. People are sinful and our flesh is weak...so how is it that Christians (those of us that should be the most aware of our own depravity) would think that we deserve anything? It is by God's grace that people are saved from themselves and their own wickedness, so how did we get the impression that we deserve anything other than God's wrath? Our culture tells us that we deserve things (in this case it's authority and leadership positions), when God's word tells us we deserve death.
5. We have to remember that Christians are set apart and called to be obedient to God's will and commands regardless of whether of not we understand them (Matthew 5:18-19)... I had to remind myself of this a lot when I was searching through scripture looking for "answers". God has laid out a plan for humanity through his Word. I don't understand why some things are the way they are because I am not God. His ways are higher than our ways! I will never understand why people feel that they can pick and chose what scriptures to believe and honor based on convenience. I'm sure most of us have been guilty of this at some point, but when you recognize it for what it is, it's ridiculous! Sure it may be easier to pick and chose what you believe or practice, but God is omniscient. We have to be satisfied with our belief that God is good and wise and wants the best for us!
Now the rambling begins...
The main argument I have heard in favor of women in authority positions over men (in churches) or pastoral roles, is that, when scripture talks about women in ministry, it is talking about a specific group of women at a specific point in time. I've been told countless times (even by professors at my Baptist school! ha) that it was culture/tradition/etc. that influenced Paul's words. I would be a fool not to acknowledge the specific instances Paul was addressing, BUT I also believe that God has established a set system for the way he desires the Church to be run. Isn't it possible (and maybe even probable) that God would chose to use these specific instances to inspire Paul to speak His words of Truth? In 2 Timothy 3:16 it says that "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness". That verse serves as yet another reason we should not take lightly God's instruction... even though it may seem "inconvenient" or "unfair" or even "sexist" to us.
I also don't understand how people can justify looking at this issue from a purely cultural standpoint and not other issues. If 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is only addressing the women in the church of Corinth, then who's to say homosexuality wasn't a problem that was only applicable to that time and culture? A lot of churches and denominations are dealing with this very issue...in fact, the Episcopalian Church is dealing with it right now just like the Baptist Church is dealing with the "women in ministry" debate! When we start dissecting God's Word to the point of declaring what is and is not valid, we walk a fine line. Again, WE ARE NOT GOD.
I realize Scripture may not give us a black and white diagram of what women are and are not allowed to do, but it does give us principles and guidance for deciding what is and is not Biblical.
My personal conclusions...
It has taken me a LONG time to come to my conclusions, but I have finally reached the point where I feel grounded in what I believe about this issue. I would be lying if I said this process was easy...it was really hard. It challenged me, stretched me, and made me really look at what I believe about God's Word, His character and Biblical interpretation as a whole. When I first felt called into ministry I pleaded with God to change His mind because I didn't know what or how He could possibly use me, BUT he was faithful and pursued me, and after a lot of prayer, sifting through Scripture and Godly council, I am confident that God has made a place for women in the Church. I could list "jobs" that I think would be appropriate, but I'd rather not. If you really look at Scripture and believe in the infallibility of God's Word then I think it's relatively clear. The Bible has laid out some things women should do, like in Titus 2, or the countless examples of women raising up children in the Truth. Unfortunately, a lot of people (including myself for a long time) focus on the negative aspects and the things women have to "miss out on" or are "forbidden from doing". The reality of the situation is that it's a hard Truth for a lot of people, but it is Truth nonetheless...
So what do you think? What are your views on women in ministry?
12 comments:
i'm still kinda fuzzy on your view of women in ministry. ha! but seriously.
You rock, Danielle!
I don't know what else to say. Haha. I agree with what you said, and we've had conversations about this before, so you know my stance. So I guess right now I'll just say, "yeah!".
Ditto what Jeremy said.
I can't claim any sort of stand on this issue for two reasons: 1) I'm a man. 2) I haven't read any of the extra-biblical scholarship on it.
None of that will stop me from giving an opinion (or at least the vague outline of one).
I would be a fool not to acknowledge the specific instances Paul was addressing, BUT I also believe that God has established a set system for the way he desires the Church to be run. Isn't it possible (and maybe even probable) that God would chose to use these specific instances to inspire Paul to speak His words of Truth?
I'm torn on that for a few reasons. Obviously, Greco-Roman culture was vastly different than the one we live in, and as a literature guy, I know the importance of looking at things in context. Without a proper understanding of the first century world, a lot of things just don't make sense. But you know all that already.
I guess I would ask you, what about things like gold beads, pearls, expensive clothes and braided hair (all forbidden in 1st Timothy)? Should the church take up a position against Coach purses or Kay jewelers? Should they allow girls to wear their hairs in braids?
There is biblical precedent for striking down the Levitical laws, but what about Pauline laws that we think should no longer apply?
You will probably reply (as you should), that the context is modesty, and I'm missing the point. What was immodest then was forbidden, and the same applies now, only with different standards of cultural modesty. But isn't that just looking at the words of Paul through a lens of history? Why can't that apply for the verse immediately following?
Again, my opinion doesn't have half the weight behind it as yours does. I'm notoriously bad with doctrine, and even worse with Baptist doctrine.
And this comment wasn't even an opinion, actually. I was only trying to get you to clarify parts of your position (that I neither agree nor disagree with).
Anyways, fun stuff.
Jeremy,
I don't know what exactly you want me to be more clear about...
Andrew,
I don't know that I can give you very clear or helpful answers (mostly because this is still a learning process for me), but I'll try my best...
What was immodest then was forbidden, and the same applies now, only with different standards of cultural modesty. But isn't that just looking at the words of Paul through a lens of history? Why can't that apply for the verse immediately following?
I think the problem comes when you try to make anything about the legalistic execution of the laws. Do I think God's Word should be adhered to? Yes. But I don't think it has to be done in the exact same way as it was in Paul's time. And I could be TOTALLY and completely wrong here...I haven't given it that much thought. But what I think is that when Paul lays out specific laws for women in terms of modesty, those same principles must be applied today. Women should strive for modesty that sets them apart from their culture and most importantly, honors God. It's a difficult subject though, because at the same time, our culture is constantly evolving, and the boundaries are being pushed. What is acceptable today (in terms of modesty and church authority) is completely different than it was centuries and even decades ago! Our world is constantly changing, but God's Word remains the same... so more often than not we are left trying to fill in the “gaps”. I think when Paul talks about women in churches, he is laying out the Biblical framework for how the church should be run. I don’t think it was purely cultural, just like modesty wasn’t a purely cultural issue.
I know some people would completely disagree with me, but what I think Paul is doing here is setting up a system that the Church should follow. In the modesty situation, I think Paul was giving the people he was talking to specific instances and examples to illustrate how women should show modesty…just as he was giving specific examples to illustrate how women should show respect and submit in the church.
Does that kind of answer your question? I don’t know if I’m being any clearer or just talking in circles! Ha.
well, i feel like you're saying we should stick to what the Bible lays out, not be afraid of it's hard truths or twist them to say what we want.
BUT you also say it's a matter of interpretation and i'm not sure you've clearly defined your interpretation. in the titus passage you linked, it talks about a woman's role being in the home, loving her husband and children, YET you've mentioned the potential of women in full time ministry.
so, i guess i just missed how YOU interpret the passages you've mentioned. other than the modesty stuff which you explained in your comment.
what is a woman's role in regards to church ministry, teaching authority, keeping quiet, etc.
those are the hot button issues!
Jeremy,
twist them to say what we want
I never meant we should twist them to say what we want. I don't even know what you are referring to…
As far as my personal interpretation, I think (like the Titus 2 passage says) that a woman's primary responsibility is to her family.
BUT that doesn't mean there aren't any full-time opportunities available for women in the Church. Not all women have a husband/children/etc. For the women that stay at home with their children, their potential for ministry is HUGE. They won't have a "full time position" at a church, but they still have the ability to actively and frequently participate in ministry...especially since they aren't confined or restricted by obligations at "work". This makes even more sense when you look at how the majority of churches are small and cannot afford to hire full-time pre-school/childrens/womens/girls ministers.
In a more "literal" example, I don’t see a problem with a woman working part-time or volunteering on a consistent basis at a church while her children are at school and husband is at work. As long as she is caring for her family and fulfilling her role in the home, I think God can use her extra time in great ways...she just has to keep her priorities in check.
In terms of the "teaching authority" thing, I think I interpret it pretty literally. Paul says "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." So basically, I think women should not teach/instruct/preach to men. Earlier this year you and I discussed whether it was right or wrong for women to teach youth since in Biblical times boys became men around 13, and honestly, I still don't have a set answer on that. I know now that I wouldn't, but more because I'd rather be safe than sorry. I know that may sound like a lame reason, BUT hey, one day I will be held accountable for my actions, and if I can avoid something that might be wrong in the eyes of God then I'm gonna just try and steer clear of it. If I had to say yes or no to women youth ministers in general or a woman teaching Sunday morning at 249, I’d say no.
As far as the “keeping quiet” part goes, I think it is important for women to exercise self-control when in group settings... like in a church. The New Testament talks about Priscilla and Aquila ministering to a man in their home, so I don’t think it means women should always keep their mouths shut and never discuss theology/Scripture/Christianity with men, but it points more to the overall attitude of submissiveness and respect. Matt Chandler said it really well in one of his sermons when he talked about how important it is for men (especially those that are preaching/teaching/etc) not to be questioned/”called-out” publically by a woman…even if she has a valid point. It takes away from their confidence, shows disrespect, and so on. She should instead ask her husband later, or possibly even discuss it privately with the man later…it’s all about the setting and her intentions.
I think that answers most of your questions...let me know if I need to offer up some more clarity on my POV ;)
OH, just kidding, I think I read your comment wrong the first time. You thought I was saying we shouldn't twist Truth to say what we want! My bad. And yea, that's pretty much exactly what I meant.
I know some people would completely disagree with me, but what I think Paul is doing here is setting up a system that the Church should follow. In the modesty situation, I think Paul was giving the people he was talking to specific instances and examples to illustrate how women should show modesty…just as he was giving specific examples to illustrate how women should show respect and submit in the church.
That sounds about right. I still have trouble, though, because Paul's teaching on women in the Church follows so closely with common wisdom at the time, and yet doesn't seem to mesh with the way Christ lived. Jesus elevated women to a ridiculous degree considering the times, and rebuked men for looking down on what they had to bring. Then again, Jesus had no female disciples, but I just have trouble with something that, on its surface, sounds exactly right given the culture at the time.
Chandler said it really well in one of his sermons when he talked about how important it is for men (especially those that are preaching/teaching/etc) not to be questioned/”called-out” publically by a woman…even if she has a valid point. It takes away from their confidence, shows disrespect, and so on. She should instead ask her husband later, or possibly even discuss it privately with the man later…it’s all about the setting and her intentions.
Would it be right for a man to call out a woman publicly? Especially in marriage. Doesn't the same rule apply in both instances? That seems more universal.
I suppose my biggest question would be, "what was Paul's reasoning?" I know that it's stupid to question the ways of God, and far be it from me to dictate to the Almighty how to run things, but with the ethical commands of Christ, for instance, the reasoning behind why he said the things he said seems clear to me in most instances. I don't ever find myself saying, "Why on earth would he want us to do that?"
This may fall in with one of those brute facts I just have to accept, but I keep finding myself asking, "Why is it that women are lower than men when it comes to ministry?" Paul doesn't really give an answer other than "it was the woman who sinned first." Almost the exact opposite reason was given for the immaculate conception.
I'm not trying to be a contrarian, I promise. Again, I don't have any well-formed position on this issue. When I raise objections, it's just because they are the questions that come to my mind immediately. I'm not trying to avoid the "hard truths" of the Bible, I'm only trying to get clarity.
I agree with you that a woman's primary responsibility is to her family, but I also believe that's a man's primary responsibility. So, I'm still lost.
I suppose my biggest question would be, "what was Paul's reasoning?" I know that it's stupid to question the ways of God, and far be it from me to dictate to the Almighty how to run things, but with the ethical commands of Christ, for instance, the reasoning behind why he said the things he said seems clear to me in most instances. I don't ever find myself saying, "Why on earth would he want us to do that?"
You could ask the same question about why God has the husband as the head of the family/household. It has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with responsibility before God. A husband and wife are equal in the eyes of God and are both image-bearers of Him, but Scripture tells us over and over that wives are to submit to their husbands (it also talks about mutual submission, but it makes it clear that the wife is to honor, respect and submit to her husband as the leader).
My view about women in ministry and how they can best serve has nothing to do with ability... it has to do with obedience. I strongly believe that women are equal to men in the eyes of God, but I also think God gave us this system (or "hierarchy" for lack of a better term) for a reason. I don’t know why, but I do trust that He has it this way for a reason…ever since Adam and Eve, men and women have had different and distinct roles.
This may fall in with one of those brute facts I just have to accept, but I keep finding myself asking, "Why is it that women are lower than men when it comes to ministry?"
I don't think women are "lower" than men in ministry, we just have different roles. There are things women can do that men couldn't even come close to, and visa versa. We're wired differently and equipped for different things. Sure there are women who are brilliant and could preach an amazing sermon if given the opportunity, but I just don't think they would be best used in a pastoral position. God equips women with certain gifts so that He can use them, not neglect them. The problem is when people start looking at positions in accordance with what they deem important. For example, a woman with the gifts of prophecy and wisdom, who has a passion for evangelism, could be used in powerful ways within the framework Paul lays out. In ministry, being a pastor just means you get "face time" in front of the congregation, not that you are the only one capable or the most important contributor. A women's minister (or girl’s/children’s/etc) could still have a huge impact.
I agree with you that a woman's primary responsibility is to her family, but I also believe that's a man's primary responsibility. So, I'm still lost.
I should have used a different word besides “responsibility”. It is both parents responsibility, but the roles are different. Titus 2 says that women should be “working at home” in order to best serve their family, while 1 Timothy 5:8 has some pretty strong words about a mans “responsibility” to his family… “But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever”. Again, both have a responsibility to their family, but their roles are different. I think it’s the same in ministry…both men and women have the ability to serve in ministry (especially since we are all called to be ministers of the Faith), but the roles are different because we, as men and women, are different.
You could ask the same question about why God has the husband as the head of the family/household. It has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with responsibility before God. A husband and wife are equal in the eyes of God and are both image-bearers of Him, but Scripture tells us over and over that wives are to submit to their husbands (it also talks about mutual submission, but it makes it clear that the wife is to honor, respect and submit to her husband as the leader).
Good point. If I weren't so tired, I might try to argue that the husband/wife passages in the Bible are geared at mutual redemption and elevation, each holding the other above themselves, but I'd probably get trumped. :-)
I don't think women are "lower" than men in ministry, we just have different roles.
You need to find a better word than "hierarchy" then. ;-)
I'm not promoting woman pastors, I'm just wondering if I would have a problem being taught by a woman. My honest response is, "I don't know." In practice, I have no problem, since I've been taught by women most of my life in subjects like English and Philosophy and Government... Theology just seems like the next natural step. In theory, again, I'm very bad at doctrine. I'll leave it to people like you who are smarter than me. :-)
I'm flattered, but I am most def. not smarter than you...i just argue better ;) ha. silly billy.
I'm with molly. I am going to go with "yeah,"
Ha. We have discussed this before, so I mean you know any opinions I have (which are few considering I have not put the time or effort into researching/learning about/questioning this topic). You know the few questions I do have and you know my basic initial opinions on the whole matter, but there isn't much more I could share. So, I think I will just agree with what you have laid out so far. I have enjoyed the post and andrew and jeremy's comments. I am not at all equipped for such discussions, so I am not even going to try.
BUT, I do admire you for your ability to argue/defend/explain/research/develop such strong opinions.
Post a Comment